F1-Productivity of Organic Agriculture

proposed by Gary vanLoon

Can organic agriculture be as productive as conventional agriculture?

-Productivity is essential to sustainability.

-Organic farmers say that this is the most important question.  Organic is where we have to go at a global scale.

-Kathy Rothermel, an organic vegtable farmer, says that she is using manual labour and having success that many said that she would not be able to have.  So was it productive?  It is so hard to put a dollar figure on the larger values, like community.

-In the 70s and 80s, proving the value of organic was really hard.

-It is very difficult to define organic?  How holistic do you have to be?  What is appropriate - is some conventional farming OK?

-What's conventional? Does that mean the most recent genetic experiment where we get to be guinea pigs?

-Research has helped prove that organic methods can yield as high.  Even with commodity farms.  Back yard farms and commodity farms can be productive with organic farms.  Some of these organic farms are extremely profitable.

-A need to understand the genetics of the crops.  Crop's natural immunity.  Plants can quickly get chemical dependant.  It is difficult to switch from traditional farming to organic.  A huge challenge.

-Ron Sleeth, a conventional farmer, is not opposed to the organic movement, but is concerned about the ability to feed Ontario with organic.  Production per acre or cow, is higher with conventional farming.  He believes he is a good steward of the land.  He uses as little chemicals as possible.  He uses 20% of what they used to use.  Especially with better use of manure and crop rotation.

-Can you be as productive with organic if you had plenty of labour?  Ron Sleeth says No. There are too many weeds.  Today you can't cultivate enough to get rid of the weeds.

-This is the big argument.

-Organic used to be small farm, but now there is much more know about methods - but now with committement and preparation, you can do organic large scale - but it takes a tough couple of years of touch transition.

-Acres USA has done a lot of research.

-Acres is excellent! The primer is a great read.

-Most conference on farming is talking about agribusiness - trying to get the land to produce more.  We should be more concerned with quality and not quantity. 

-From a more global view, can we even feed everyone.

-Most of we are eating more than we need.  And we waste so much food.  Can we produce enough?  Is nutrition more in organic food.  We are malnutrious and overeaters.  We need quality and not quantity.  

-The philosophy of organic farming is to feed the local people.

 -Too many people are getting sick with a global food system.  

-If you talk about sustainability, you have to talk about organic.  Or can you talk about low-input farming?  In tough envirnomental time, perhaps some chemicals are necessary?

-Maybe - but then you are compromising your value.

-Organic certification is a completely different discussion.

-Perhaps using chemicals to heal animals is better stewardship.  Somethings happen to dairy cows that require conventional health methods - some times antibodies are needed - then its not organic.

-Homeopathy could help instead of using antibiotics.

- Productivity is a major component of sustainability.  But not as the only component.  This is another point of tension.

-Nitrogen cycle is driving tremendous increase in productivity.  Organic cannot compete with this increased method.  But the nitrogen inputs is coming from oil - a limited resource.

-Who are we trying to feed? Are we trying to feed local or global.

-Fossil fuels - can we keep feeding everyone when population is growing because of unsustainable food production.  We have a system that has evolved because of very cheap fertilizer and fuel costs.

-Farmers are not making profit compared to fuel and fertilizers providers.

-We need a better model for transition from conventinal to organic.

-Organic produces less - because of less nitrogen, and because of fallow land.  There is no doubt that organic produces less, but it is still better.  Farmers were never rich, but they were happy.  Now it is such a business and farmers are sad.  We lost a lot of good farmers.

-Ron is not sad and not sick and is making a good living.  Conventional dairy are doing OK.  

-Supply management - small farmers are being removed in light of big business.

-The factory farm is very problematic.  They are killing the real life systems around us.  Those people do not contribute to society.

-As an eater, we woudl rather do to the farm gate.  Farming is about community and we have a responsible to our community.

-We cannot be as productive with organic in our lifetime.  Organic farmers do not look at it in yield.

-organic demand is another issue.

-Quality of milk - is it as good?  Conventional farmer says that it is as good.  

-Dairy farmer - so dependance on quota system.

-organic product is a Better product - this was the experience with the sheep business.  Consumer and demand.

-Global fertilizer use is going up quickly.  How do we deal with this in light of peak oil?  Crop rotation - using less fertilizer.

-Peak oil means collapse of the corporate food system as we know it.

-What about the disruption of the natural environment and the quality of the soil?  What about pesticides?  This is something that organic farmers are trying to address.  Conventional farmers are not.

-Conventional farmers do care for the earth.  Most farmers do.

-We are producing enough food.  There is not problem with production.

-Let's use more labour and spend more on working the soil - then can we be as productive?  Maybe.  Let's get more youth involved in farming.

-If you want to get kids farming have them buy lotto tickets and the winners can then farm till the money runs out.

-There is no such thing as cheap food.  Corporate greed - its not getting back to the farmer.

-Good conventional farmers are becoming a thing of the past.  Where are we going?  We are losing our farmers.  

-Why are we looking at crop rotation as a new idea.

-Organic farming can be as productive if we have enough labour.

-So what is the final answer?  At the end of the hour, we are still saying both yes and no.

 _ we need to think about sustainable farming and farming systems that can adapt. We need to look at the whole system including fuel costs, costs of machinery fertilizer etc.

On light sandy soils it is better to use no till methods with selective herbicides rather than plowing.